Are import brides a brake on integration?
The Dutch government is working on several measures to curb the influx of so-called import brides and grooms. Immigrants in the Netherlands marrying partners from their countries of origin, the government argues, put a brake on integration. Their partners are often poorly educated and regularly end up in a dependent and isolated position once in the Netherlands. 15,000 such marriages were counted in the Netherlands last year, up 30 percent from 2007.
“Because of their lack of knowledge of the Dutch language, their low level of education and unfamiliarity with the [Dutch] institutions there is a risk that these women will not be able to adequately raise their children to be proper citizens,” integration minister Eberhard van der Laan said in defence of the measures.
In an editorial on the issue NRC Handelsblad sided with experts who say every citizen’s right to a family life is determined by the European Convention on Human Rights. “Who we share our lives with or want to marry is an individual choice. The motives for doing so are by definition not a matter for the state. It is dangerous to try to stem immigration by imposing standards that belong to family law,” the editorial said.
What do you think? Are import brides indeed a brake on integration of ethnic minorities and should the practice be discouraged, in the Netherlands and elsewhere, or should everyone be allowed to marry who they want, even if they are related or underage under Dutch law?
Thursday 8 October 2009, 13:49
This is becoming a dictatorship governed country. Now you are telling Dutch who they can and can´t marry? You use scare tactics to scare the Dutch public that this marriage migration is so out of control when it is actually impossible to be out of control because Rita Verdonk changed those laws so strictly in the past, that there is no way anyone could get beyond those laws in the first place for one, the Netherlands already charges exorbitant fees just to apply for residency, and those who need a visa must pass an outrageously tough integration exam that cost over 300 euros on top of the residence application fee, the integration test has more to do with nonsense then it actually focuses on the langauge itself. These constant anti immigration politics is starting to wear thin and not doing anything to help this country at all, as a matter of fact, the Netherlands is losing international businesses that employ Dutch citizens because of the xenophobic atmosphere. The politicians themselves actually makes this country more unattractive and hated by other Western countries the more you open your big hateful mouths. I also believe the netherlands is in severe Breach and violation of international and EU human rights laws. PVDA and CDA are making a mockery of how actual democracy should be in a Western country. This is more like a banana republic. PVDA is feeling PVV breathing down their backs and making more of a fool of themselves which they only have themselves to blame why nobody wants to vote for them. CDA has already been a lost cause, after Balkenende 1, 2, 3, and now 4. Sheeesh! Time for USA and Canada to boycott the Netherlands and any EU country that follows the Netherlands xenophobic hatred that has spread all over Europe.
PVDA the party of Labor? Has turned into the party of Hate, ignorance and liars! Geert Wilders is not even as bad as PVDA.
Friday 9 October 2009, 13:19
The world is indeed becoming a global village and people will (increasingly) marry from outside their home countries or ethnic groups. Of course, while the law in the Netherlands is meant to prevent import brides from predominantly Turkey and Morocco, the native Dutch population who choose to marry from outside their country (or the EU) would suffer as well.
Conservatism is a natural aspect of society—the need to preserve religion, identity, culture, language. However, the changing world not only questions this conservatism but directly challenges it. Governments will do all they can to preserve the status quo in order to gain votes but the only constant in life is change.
I have native some Dutch friends married to Filipinos and South Americans. The paper work involved for their spouses to settle in the Netherlands was unbelievable. Some of them wondered why their country treated their spouses this way.
As I said, conservatism is an aspect of society and whether we like it or not, as our children become more mobile, they will fall in love and marry from corners of the earth their grandparents barely knew.
Friday 9 October 2009, 17:44
The importation referred to is a serious and obvious pan-European problem. Simply put, numerous immigrants from cultures challenged, at the individual level above all, by European culture, shun integration and responsibility for it. How to exert pressure the other way is far from obvious. A higher age thresh-hold is justified. So are tests of commitment to integration, including language. PC ideologues will howl, but the real victims are young girls transported to incomprehensible circumstances, and their (numerous) children.
Tuesday 13 October 2009, 11:46
if we take a look at a recent report (http://www.phgfoundation.org/news/4864/ )about inherited diseases of which Arabs in the Gulf region alone have the most unknown and seldom onces it is clear this measure is more then a stop on the influx of brides who are not able nor willing to work here. it is a humane form of ethnic cleansing, meaning the cleaning up the genome they are spreading amongst themselves. it is necessary to clip the rise of health care costing so dearly already, so yes, it will surely cut the influx of illiterate women who won’t be able to participate in our labor process and it will clip the rise of future bills concerning health care
not before long this conclusion will be interpreted as a variation of Lebensborn, the Nazi way of breeding more Nazi’s, more blue eyed and blond Aryans, but this of course is as far fetched an accusation as one can imagine: any government has to safeguard it’s population of hazards as claimed in aforementioned report where diabetes and breast cancer are two of the better known horrors nobody wants to obtain, nor through habits like eating the wrong food, smoking nor by marrying within the family, here between cousins and nieces
Tuesday 13 October 2009, 16:34
I second Sandra V from the depth of my heart on her comments on this issue. Please let me say “its a violation of the universal human rights’.
Who so ever have introduced this term ‘Import Brides’ have tried his or her best to invent a very very ridiculous demand.
Its a point of shame to force people to choose their life partners under the rules and regulations,its quite embarrassing for every individual who rejects discrimination and owns broader vision as a human being.
Its equally surprising that almost all of the established political parties are not reacting on this notorious issue!!
All these stupid and racially influenced demands reminds me the history of slavery and apartheid.And sure giving in to these anti-social demands we are trying to re-introduce black-laws!
We need a leadership in this country which involve us in the real issues about economy,jobs,health care,housing and not a leadership whose agenda is to disrupt peace in our society!!
Wednesday 14 October 2009, 12:04
Khalid Ahmed Chaudry, I am glad to see your response on here. I think it is time that you and I, as well as others who care to join, take this case directly to the UN, and demand that sanctions be taken against the Netherlands and other EU countries that follow their Xenophobic human rights violations. Also, take it a step further by demanding that the Netherlands be thrown out of NATO and that the international human rights court no longer be held in the hague since the Netherlands is itself violating human rights. I hope Obama makes sure he keeps the invasion act against the Hague intact, since the Netherlands cannot be trusted at all.
Thursday 15 October 2009, 23:01
For me and a group of friends who gathered to debate this issue, it would be – in the first instance – if ALL foreigners irrespective of the countries they come from are subject to this coming rule. Would Americans, Canadians, Australians etc be required to go through the same steps? Or there is some consideration FOR PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE US? Culturally, even people from the province of Friesland have some cultural values different from the people of Limburg – and yet they are all Dutch. Differences with people are not necessarily a negative-total – it could equally be a learning zone for others with a different cultural background. Verdonk and Wilders are illiteratyes when it comes to these values of learning curve for civilizations – through contact and influx of migrants. Look at America!!
This debate should not even start. It beats my imagination why ministers of state talk in some coloured discriminately language. They should speak factually and plainly about their concern and stop that paternelistic jumbo – to prevent some women being abused etc. Was it such a”foolish act” to import the Turks and the Morrocans – who might be that illiterate some years back? The former minister – Verdonk – showed us all her true colours when she made all those laws in curb the migraqtion of people to join their spouses – and now where is she standing on migrants and islam.
Please Netherlands be the Dutch the world over had admired for your progressive characterics and do not allow the curent ‘vote hungry and populist politicians’ spoil that image. the world is moving on and forward, please don’t drift back.
Migrants and their spouses are helping to build this country and not destroying – no matter the station in lives when they first came.
Above all, it is against a persons right to choose his wife or husband. You have some human rights and rule of law institutions berth in this country to damage that image. Please don’t for God sake destroy what your forebearers built to attract all kinds of people into this country and helped build it.
Saturday 17 October 2009, 0:37
Sandra, Our duty as citizens is to unite ourselves democratically by reaching democratic institutions of our country as well as those of international and United Nations.
I think print and electronic media can play very very constructive and decisive role but first A Forum or an organization to mobilize people.
This issue of ‘import brides’ will not vanish in the possible future and through this process of slow poisoning will continue. We should loby with the members of the parliament,local government,ngo’s,and other human rights organizations.
I would love to welcome an opportunity to meet you and other like minded members of the civic society.
let’s not forget to acknowledge the support of the NRC for providing us space to build dialogue and discussion.
Sunday 18 October 2009, 18:40
I would like to support Schneider’s argument, up to a point. Yes, it is sad that the goverment has to intervene in the personal sphere of its citizens. However, those who think this is merely a matter of immigration control are blind to the realities of the matter. Some – i would dare say, many – brides ‘imported’ by Dutch migrant communities are the victim of emotional and physical abuse. This is a sad fact which anyone who has had firsthand experience with these matters can attest to. The problem is particularly rampant amongst poorly educated migrants from Moroccan, Kurdish and Pakistani communities. Allowing this situation to continue unchecked because ‘human rights’ take precedence is naive at best. The would-be brides and grooms are not merely victims of the proposed legislation. Some of their lives will be better for it. In today’s polarized climate it is hard to appreciate the complexities of these issues – but for the same reason it is more necessary than ever. I am not defending the suggested legislation per se, but I would suggest people on both sides of this issue try to supress a knee-jerk response to it. Bringing the Nazis into the discussion is rarely helpful.
Friday 30 October 2009, 9:11
My own ‘import bride’ speaks Dutch, has several university degrees, has a good job and pays taxes, and like all her friends who came to this country the same way she did, she has but one wish: to leave this country for ever.
According to her, the way this country treats women and minorities is extremely backward compared to the various countries where she and her friends came from. Here in the Netherlands, married women are expected not to have a career, and most quit their jobs or start working less than 20 hours a week in a menial job ‘just for fun’ as soon as they have children. Certain minorities are openly discriminated against, and excluded from responsible jobs. Stores are closed on Sundays here, and religious indoctrination in public schools is officially endorsed. She referred to this country once as a time machine. Every time we return here from a trip abroad, it is like traveling back in time 3 or 4 decades.
Rather than trying to do something about it, people here are openly encouraged by politicians to become even more xenophobic, or risk being excluded yourself. Try to imagine the same happening in other countries. George W. Bush, famous for being a right wing nut job, would never even have dreamed of dismissing everyone with a slightly darker skin as ‘allochtoon’, telling people to speak American or leave the country, or forcing them to follow degrading and expensive courses or face fines or expulsion. This is exactly what minorities in this country have to hear from their own elected officials every day.
So is she a break on integration? I suppose she is. I wonder, if I hadn’t been married to her, and as a result didn’t spend so much time in other countries, would I have been swept along in the xenophobic mass hysteria as well? Would I still have considered it completely normal and unremarkable when people make racist or sexist jokes at work?
Wednesday 4 November 2009, 21:49
In order for a country like the Netherlands to protect all of it’s people and it’s great way of life it doesn’t seem a terrible thing to have restrictions on this type of immigration. Deal with potential problems today, despite the politically correct contingent, or else you may find your way of life that you cherish, doomed in the future. I’m sure that there are plenty of muslim women already in the Netherlands to choose from. If immigrants or non-native dutch citizens want to live in your country then they should embrace you the Dutch as potential brides and grooms and not look elsewhere. It’s probably more that some of the immigrants are the racists and the xenophobes than the other way around. I’m sure that there are some dutch women who would marry a morrocan or kurd but not to be subjugated or forced into a religion that creates second class citizens of most of their women. As an immigrant to the USA from Brazil, we have embraced American culture (for the most part) and do not go shopping for husbands and wives in Brazil. Control immigration to your country today in order to have your future secure.
Tuesday 10 November 2009, 10:55
Every nation has the right to protect its historical territory: they do this by restricting immigration (forbidding import-brides) and controlling the demography of foreigners. Its completely against natural law and human rights to obstruct a people while protecting it’s own territory. There are no arguments for this kind of self-destructive insanity.
There’s a great divide between the masses (who see their country & streets deteriorating & transforming into a third world country) and a small alienated group of (leftish-liberal) politicians & expats & NGO’s & academics etc. who think this country is their toy.
@ Rick A
You are an arrogant fool. You have been travelling, really ? Well, you have seen nothing more then your own leftish incrowd. You are as crazy & alienated as the hippies in the sixties. Please leave this country and take your higly educated import bride with you.
Tuesday 17 November 2009, 19:11
I am Dutch and my wife is from the Caribbean. First we lived in Europe and now in the Caribbean. I am happy that I am not subject to the same type of stupid rules for my residence papers in the Caribbean, because I would probably fail to meet them. My Spanish is far from perfect and only improving slowly.
Let’s get real and look what is happening. I have noticed that there are several reasons to import a bride or broom;
1. True love
2. Macho behaviour, some men want to have a bride they can dominate instead of local woman of the same (dual) nationality, who has learned to talk back.
3. Helping family or friends to migrate to a better live.
4. Get money from your future bride or broom in order to be enable their immigration, current rates are somewhere from 3500 Euros upwards dependent on the European country.
I am convinced that many of these marriages have an economic background and frequently divorce occurs relatively soon after the arrival in Europe. After divorce the imported partner will often depend on the welfare state. Without any question the government has the right and the duty to discourage this type of immigration.
However I am completely against the way it is done. It is completely crazy that state officials try to determine what true love is. It is equally crazy to forbid cousins to marry, just because it would stop some of the import brides of type 3, besides the right papers can be bought. It is crazy to expect the people to learn Dutch in their country of origin. I also have seen a marriage of type 4 turn into a marriage of type 1. Love cannot be regulated.
Xenophobia is morally wrong and counter productive to stop economic immigration, because it concentrates on the wrong issues. You need economic incentives to discourage economic migration.
I propose to make it simple and to make the partner in the Netherlands responsible for the cost of living of the bride or broom for e.g. 10 years, also after a divorce. It would discourage all marriages out of economic motives (bad cost/benefits). It discourages helping friends and relatives because it gets too expensive and also some of our machos would rethink.
Most of the other stupid restrictions could be lifted. If you love somebody you could bring her/him to the Netherlands without most of the current hassle. You only have to accept that marriage is “forever” (10 years).
Wednesday 18 November 2009, 15:49
My name is Laura and I am an Aussie citizen. I have a dutch boyfriend who is applying to get into Australia on the basis that we are in a defacto, intention to marriage or a marriage relationship. In order to prove this, we have to show that we have lived together for a year and show that our relationship is closed, committed and has a future. We do this by getting various documents together, e.g. shared bank account statements, statements from friends and family and so on. I think this is completely legitimate. It is important for the governemnt to make sure that there is a relationship for the right reasons if it also requires the country to take on a new citizen. I think the Dutch system is useless. You guys think your system is tough, when you dont even know what tough is. And tough is the right way to do it. As a law student I am all too familiar with the decleration of human rights. And anyway who says that this is a breah against it, obviously has not read the document itself. It is also a right for the country to allow who enters and who doesnt. The Australian system costs like over 2,000 euros to even apply, your system cost like 300 euros. And I am proud of the Aussie system because we try to seperate the right reasons from the wrong reasons.
E.g. Dutch morrocans have both nationalities. So why dont you say that every moroccan person who wants to marry a morrocan from the morroco has to live together for a year, like we did. They can do this because they have morrocan nationality, but I betcha no dutch morrocan wants to spend a whole year in morroco, and if they dont do it then it is obviously not for love.
I agree with Erica, also, I have a friend who went through the Dutch system (She is an aussie and lives in Holland now)and she said it was a piss of piece. If your care about your country at all, dont ruin by having an influx of people for the wrong reasons.
Sunday 24 January 2010, 0:12
@ 10 Rick I agree with your bride. Dutch people are very convinced everything in Holland is superb and, in fact, “things” are a lot better arranged than in many other countries. But for women in many ways the country is primitive, especially when it comes to the distribution of jobs and responsibilities for higher educted people. I have found life outside the universities in Holland medieval and unbearable as a woman and a lot better but very far from ideal inside the university.
You forgot to mention one aspect: childbirth in Holland is a next to barbarian practice and I strongly advise your bride and all her foreign lady friends to have the baby in any other country but the Netherlands.