Should a cost-benefit analysis of immigration be made?
Can and should a cost-benefit analysis of immigration be made? That is the question currently up for debate in Dutch parliament and society.
Before summer recess a parliamentarian for Geert Wilders’ anti-Islam Party for Freedom (PVV) sent questions to all 12 Dutch ministries asking them to list the costs of (non-western) immigrants and their offspring to society. The PVV wanted to know how much taxes immigrants pay, how often they go the doctor’s and what percentage of police interventions is related to immigrants. But it also demanded to know, for instance, how many drivers stuck in traffic jams throughout the Netherlands are immigrants.
This week the cabinet provided answers to some of the PVV’s questions, but it refused to answer others. Not only because it couldn’t – in many areas of government ethnicity plays no role and no statistics are kept – but because “we don’t keep records of the value of people,” as integration minister Eberhard van der Laan said.
American author Christopher Caldwell recently wrote a book about European immigration and in an interview with NRC Handelsblad he said: “The question about the economic cost of immigration is entirely legitimate. The justification for [the] mass immigration [of the seventies] was economic too: Europe’s industry needed guest workers. You can’t argue that immigration is necessary on economic grounds and then not look at the economic effects.”
What do you think? Should a cost-benefit analysis of non-Western immigration in the Netherlands, and other countries, be made? Or should the government stick to its political stand that it will not put a figure on the value of people just because the anti-immigrant party asks it to?
Sunday 13 September 2009, 12:34
Bush lover, Jan-Peter Balkenende, our PM, fights Muslims abroad by pestering the Afghans with violence and supporting the Americans in the destruction of Iraq. But he is careful not to antagonize Dutch Muslims, for fear of national unrest.
Wilders, in the opposition, loves unrest and specializes in antagonizing Dutch Muslims. His party’s ‘questions’ on the cost of immigration are supposed to substantiate another attack on Dutch Muslims, but that will not be very effective, since most Muslims in Holland have Dutch passports and can no longer be called immigrants. Attacks on immigration will not curb Islam, which is already established. Thanks to abundant procreation, in the future we will have more Muslims than today, whatever Wilders does. His xenophobia does not have a future. But it may cause unrest for a few decades, as a result of marginalizing and humiliating a large part of our urban population.
Religious bigotry is nothing new to the Netherlands. Before Muslims were designated as the working class, the Catholics suffered that fate. Something that is not very obvious in English, but prominent in Dutch discussions, is that Geert Wilders, the belated Pim Fortuyn and many other protagonists of the extreme right, stem from those Catholic working class families that were denied religious freedom for so many centuries. The irony in their attacks on multiculturalism is that Catholicism has always been Holland’s biggest enemy. If we are to get rid of unwanted religions, Catholicism is top of the list. The Reformation made this country, which rose from a war against the intolerance of the Catholic church, and procured a situation in which Jews were safe from (Catholic) persecution.
Catholics in Holland seem to have forgotten their own history. They should be grateful for their own emancipation and not overstate their presence by trying to bring Holland back to the intolerance of the Papal authorities. N.B. they should not try. Succeed they will not anyway.
Sunday 13 September 2009, 16:27
@ Patrick Faas
Quoted – see above
“”His [Wilders] party’s ‘questions’ on the cost of immigration are supposed to substantiate another attack on Dutch Muslims, but that will not be very effective, since most Muslims in Holland have Dutch passports and can no longer be called immigrants. Attacks on immigration will not curb Islam, which is already established. Thanks to abundant procreation, in the future we will have more Muslims than today, whatever Wilders does.”"
This actually not true.
Dual Citizenship
About 80% of Dutch Muslims have dual citizenship. So that they are actually citizens of Morocco or Turkey at the same time they are Dutch – Wilders has been saying they need to make a choice – especially if they are in governing positions – loyalties need to be established.
Are they for example working for Moroccan interests or are they working for Dutch interests.
‘Curbing Islam’
As a religion few really care about Islam – Wilders – I believe – sees the problem coming from Muslims imposing their religion on others. Muslims have sensitivities – but so do others. We can’t live in an open and free society where only – the sensitivities of Muslims are respected. Then it becomes an Islamic society – governed by Islamic laws. And this is what Wilders objects to – and why he is being supported.
Muslim ‘Procreation’
If it is all about ‘abundant procreation’ !! Then why are we having a discussion about immigration – it is not the babies that are the problem – it is the reckless abandon immigration policy – that allows every single (mainly Muslim) immigrant to freely bring a spouse and sometimes two or three spouses from the Islamic world.
The baby theory is overblown – if an immigrant has just three children – but first imported their spouse from overseas – then when the children grow up (teenagers) each of these children then take a spouse from overseas – with these figures 1 person who has 3 children – and imports 4 – now becomes 8. [So it could appear that they had a lot of children.]
That is why Denmark stopped the marriage immigration practise – back in 2002. They did a cost analysis and found that it was costing them 10 billion krn/ year – to settle the newcomers.
But in Holland to say – perhaps the immigration laws are being flouted – is racist!!
There is a constant supply of unskilled people – who have little or no interest in Dutch life – because they don’t have to. And worst believe strongly that Holland should become an Islamic state.
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It is okay to say – were are going to get along with Islam – but can Islam get along with everyone else – and history shows in places like India (pre-Partition) and the Lebanon that this is not the case. The problem is not just a Dutch one – across Europe Muslims are trying to impose Islamic law on the rest of society.
But it has become racist to say – we don’t want to live like the Copts in Egypt – as second class citizens under Sharia laws.
The Koran clearly lays out that Muslims must impose Islamic laws – although conversion is not mandatory – we must pay the jizya tax willingly and with submission – and if not we are either to convert or be fought against. [Qur'an 9:29] So that it may not be logic that guides Muslims – but religious conviction.
Sunday 13 September 2009, 20:21
How can you call people of Moroccan/Turkish origin, who are second generation in the Netherlands ‘immigrants’ when they hold Dutch passports and know no other country as home? In a nutshell, the PVV appears more and more as nothing but a populist and psychotic party. It is parties like this that make me think Europe has a long way to go. Thank God for the United States!
Patrick Faas raises an excellent point in regard to past persecution of Roman Catholics in the Netherlands. Muslims are the new Catholics. Two generations down the line, the PVV would be ridiculed at with the same fervor the Nazi party is ridiculed today.
Monday 14 September 2009, 16:50
I am not particularly in favour, but everything and everyone is estimated financially, and sensitive people feel frustrated at this. But why should it not, if there may be no cost at all? Some say it is gain, some it is loss. Maybe it is neither. It is taken for granted it is very costly, and this is already a kind of confirmation. Help to poor countries has sometimes been a waste of money. Investigation of these funds is no discrimination to these countries. But discrimination has been used against this country too often, blindly, and has become a predictable sub-culture. The issue of the third world is for instance not that people are black or brown, this is only pop, but that they have no money for food. ‘Third world’ is estimated a discriminatory term meanwhile in this context. A Dutchman can not appear to every citizen of the globe as being of the same colour or sex as a Maitreya.
Monday 14 September 2009, 17:29
This will be my second opinion on this, and I only wanted to request that “lets discuss other issues like poverty,injustices,good governance,democracy,gender,peace” in place of this.
PVV have done a lot of damage in regard to the understanding and relationship within our communities. If the Article 1 of our constitution demands ‘equal rights and opportunities for every body living here, then why should we target on part of the citizens!
Monday 14 September 2009, 19:03
Sure go ahead and do the research. But include clear definitions on what is an immigrant (in my view a child born here and holding Dutch citizenship cannot be counted as a migrant), and also include some estimation of what could have happened to the Dutch economy without all those “guest workers” who arrived here in the 70s.
I’d also like to see an analysis on the economic impact of Wilder’s statements and behaviour. It certainly is having a negative effect on how the country is seen.
Wednesday 16 September 2009, 12:08
If it’s done honestly by competent experts, why not? We shouldn’t be afraid of the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may turn out to be.
If the whole rationale for allowing a large number of immigrants to this country was based on economic factors (as least that’s what they said back in the Sixties and Seventies), then it certainly makes sense to look at the economic consequences of such a massive influx. As a fact of fact, it’s simply foolish not to do so!
Friday 18 September 2009, 23:36
@ Oliver John
The reason Dutch Moroccans / Turkish are often referred to as immigrants –
1) 80% hold dual citizenship – two passports
2) The marriage practise which allows Muslims unrestricted right to choose their partner from their countries of origin. So instead of going down the street and choosing a partner – many Muslim families arrange for their children to marry often a cousin – from the old country and bring them back to Europe.
The problem comes when 2nd and 3rd generations are doing the same – meaning that eventually the number of immigrants grows exponentially.
So Wilders is not hallucinating.
And what is happening is that most of the people being brought in as marriage partners – with few exceptions – are low skilled. And in many cases can end up being supported by the state.
So this is where the costing comes in – first Wilders is objecting to the unrestricted immigration policy – and secondly he is saying – well what is it costing us.
Denmark did a cost study – and put a stop to the immigrant marriages – back in 2002 and secondly the US has also carried out costings of Mexican and other Latino immigrants.
One of the main differences between Islamic and Catholic immigrants – is that Muslim immigrants are advocating for Islamic or Sharia law – in Holland.
Whereas US Catholic immigrants – though slightly more conservative – tend only to be interested in finding a job.
Friday 25 September 2009, 17:27
It is surprising that anyone would object to looking at all the facts before making an important decision. How foolish it would be to make important decisions on immigration without knowing if immigrants are an economic asset or an economic liability. Those who oppose gathering this data are trying to foist a fraud on the Dutch nation.
Friday 25 September 2009, 20:14
I am greatly dismayed that most Muslims seem to enjoy the “protections “of using Islam as a “get out of jail” card to justify their antisocial behaviours. Even as a Catholic, I personally I think the mandatory draft should be reinstated. I think since it has ended, today’s youth has become increasingly out of control. I work in The Hague and am embarrassed when I leave work and walk with visiting business visitors through the hordes of delinquent teens that seem to relish in the fact they can terrorize the working class. I for one would like to see the Tax money being finally put to good use. Rather than further fuelling pointless initiatives such as conserving ideas that obviously hinder integration. The question is what would happen if the non Muslim population would suddenly impose the same strict sharia laws found in some countries but only on the NL Muslim population,,,, I am sure that it would be called inhumane and calls for human rights violations would be in the UN in 2 seconds flat. Would the Muslim youth be able to carry on and get away with the same disrespectful behaviour in Morocco or Turkey? I understand that it is not every one, but lets face the facts and stop ignoring the elephant in the room. I seriously wonder what would happen if tomorrow i wished to open a Christian church or a Christian youth centre in Morocco how many Moroccans would step up to the plate and help me? At this point many have or will now say that I am being unjust, but if you are about to critique my posting then i ask that you come up with an explanation. You cannot deny that this issue is nearly always Morroccan or Antillian youths. I am a practicing Catholic. I have been witness to a Chaldean (Iraqi Christian church) christening and completely amazed to hear the word Allah in Christian prayers and to see the sign of the cross being performed using an Arabic sounding language. The Chaldean followers that I had spoken to were considerate, friendly, and respectful. This was when I realized that indeed Allah is God and is the same God that I have a great respect for and see in my fellow humans and also of which I treat with great respect. The Catholic Church is by far not perfect. I believe all people are equal however people need to have respect in order to receive respect in return. Something a great portion of the Moroccan community is lacking.
Have a look at an interesting article from 2006 by the BBC
Friday 25 September 2009, 20:15
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5413808.stm
Friday 25 September 2009, 20:38
Any research related to legal immigration is needed to be carried out to understand the situation of the country (off course, in the end, I guess these type of research will be paid using tax payers money – money that I, a non western immigrant and have no political rights to vote in the Netherlands, have contributed to). To be objective, a good analysis should not be initially targetted to certain group people as suggested by Wilders but also dares to count how immigration could contribute to the society – such as immigrant’s savings, immigrants’ business investments, social savings such as education background (before they left their home countries and after they are in home countries), their properties in host countries, etc. My peer group are majority non-western immigrants who came to Holland for master degree education then work in the Netherlands with taxes more than average, then in the end having relationships with locals. Is this type of group that Wilder’s after as well? His hatred of non-western immigrants have gone too far this time. Oh btw, Maxima comes from non-western country, isn’t she? Or will Wilder consider her as a western just because of her looks?
Saturday 26 September 2009, 19:24
Yesterday Forum, the Institute for Multicultural Development, is a Dutch based organisation with its focus on intergration with a wide prespective looking into a variety of social parameters such as law, religion, youth, labour said they themselves are going to calculate what Geert Wilders has asked for.
By doing so Forum has achieved two things: fist of all they will get their own numbers and facts on this issue, second they took the wind out of this most erratic reqeust by GW: yes, there will be some money lost here, but no, this country will not become like New Zealand were immigrants with doctorates and a lot of cash come in first. This country always was a beacon for the downtrodden and the refugees.
Humanism, looking to people with almost biblical glasses isn’t about analysis cost versus return, it is about, well, doing the right thing really. Eventually, let’s say in 20 years, everything will turn out right, allthough a lot of signals predict otherwise.
It should be nice if both Forum and the Rekenkamer take this into account before all hell brakes loose over a couple of billion: “kost gaat voor de baat”, that is what really matters; return on investment is one of those uncertainties witch won’t pop up researching figures from the past.
Sunday 27 September 2009, 11:47
Well, I am neither dutch nor immigrant for Holland, but I find this article intresting. i Live in UK as an immigrant and actually I would do same if I had so many immigrants. Is this statement a dual standard? No, I pay taxes, never was illegal and work hard. Immigrants should do same but should also imbibe the culture and tradition of the country they chose to live. Co-Sanguinity not only causes health problems but will be burden to economy, if the cousins, who are not educated and with strong work ethics come to new country.
Wednesday 30 September 2009, 1:55
@ 13 Victor: I admire your warm heart but most of the immigrants that the Netherlands receives aren’t particularly “downtrodden and refugees”. They aren’t on the run for inquisition, prosecution or annihilation like the immigrants from the past. Instead, they are economic migrants. So then I’d say an economic analysis of their presence isn’t totally far-fetched.
And unlike you I don’t think that within 20 years everything will be alright – at least not if we continue with these liberal immigration policies. I personally don’t think anything good can come out of the cohabitation of liberal atheist westerners and conservative islamic arabs.
Wednesday 30 September 2009, 10:44
Why don’t we do a cost benefit analysis on the families of all PVV memebers? How much taxes they pay, how often they go to doctors, what congenital diseases they may have, what their level of education is and what percentage of them benefit from social welfare.
After such an analysis is made public, I would support a similar analysis on immigrants, however one chooses to define that!
Wednesday 30 September 2009, 20:55
@Elmer
people tend to chamge, for starters we simply NEED those immigrants because of our rather rambling demographics. furthermore I don’t believe atheïst westerners and consevative arab muslims team up to get this country on its knees. only 800.000 are muslim here, the rest of our immigrant believe whatever they WANT to believe in.
I for one think it is those christians (the CDA is key player here) with their seperate scholingsystem is to blame for a lot of problems now: everyone should go to a good school, and do the praying and believing in their churches, mosques, synagogues and in their private homes, as mutch as they please. that is TRUE freedom of religion, the thing we have here is apartheid on schoolyards
those schools suck and keep people inside their little boxes, all because some old and supposedly holy books are supposed to be true in the first place, and nothing but(which of course they aren’t)
whitch makes me a heretic, I persume…
Thursday 1 October 2009, 16:35
@ Victor: indeed there’s a lot wrong with our own folk as well. I was only referring to the fact that the authentic Dutchmen and -women seem to tend towards atheism or at least secularism. As long as immigrant muslims respect (better: endorse) secularism they can believe whatever they want. I just think it’s a pity that after a century of getting rid of Christian dogmas and the breaking-free of the individual from collective norms and values (recognising that life is for one’s own, to live his own way), we now get growing groups of people with exactly that kind of old-fashioned dogmatic views in our country. That doesn’t mean that those people have to leave, but we could be more careful to let many more in.
And with regards to our demographics, perhaps we should do away with the idea that a population should always grow. We complain about the overpopulation of the world but we never want our own population to decline. A decline towards a steady 14 million people could make Holland a much nicer country to live in.
Friday 2 October 2009, 15:19
I’m an immigrant which is from Asia. I’m now busy with the Intregration Course which I heard that cost 4,000-5,000 euro per person and the munipality(de gemeente) pays for this.
What I’m trying to say that the list of immigrant people is very, very long. That means so much money(million) that government put on this program. There is one thing in my mind that also so many muslim people that have to do this course and they live here already very long! My question is if you live here already for a long time, why they don’t speak Dutch. I just mean why don’t they think that they need to speak Dutch to live here and to have a (good)job.
Another one more case that is TRUE and I heard it. There is a Moroccan guy in another class. He said he hates Dutch people and he doesn’t wanna live in Holland(he used a very rude word for Dutch people). He has to move from Morocco during his studies because he has to be here… I asked “WhAT FOR?”
I don’t know if it’s about that he needs to be present here to get “subsidie / uitkering” (whatever I’m not sure about that)for himself or for his parents..
I heard that here you can apply for that money if you have children (muslim has a lot!)
I think Gov. needs to be more strict and carefully about this. I’m sure that there are more things that they can apply for. I think Gov. needs to reorganise about haveing 2 passports for these people.
I think it’s nothing to do with discremination or democracy. It’s just about WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG! and what reasonable is
Friday 2 October 2009, 15:35
lol one more thing!
The Intregration Course (Inburgeringscursus) is really for the people who know nothing about world civilisation or just a simple living process. I also don’t know what kind of people are and where that people from…
It’d save so much more money for Holland if here would have a process to check an immigrant ability first then decide if that person needs to do the course or not!
Friday 2 October 2009, 15:58
I gree with Elmer
Monday 5 October 2009, 17:34
After living here for quite some time now, it really surprised me how much Holland has changed during the last couple of years. Political opportunists are jumping on the bandwagon, trying to grab as much power as possible in the Dutch Parliament, at all costs. In the process, Dutch citizens of foreign backgrounds are being dragged through the mud, literally. It’s a very cheap and shameless way indeed of trying to win more seats in the Dutch Parliament. I sincerely hope that wisdom will prevail among the Dutch voters during the next Dutch National Elections, due in 2011.
Tuesday 6 October 2009, 1:07
To calculate the cost of immigrants there is one simple be it rough method: Take over a couple of years the Gross National Product and compare that with the population. I guess that also for Holland you will see a decrease in GSP per person. Which is for the first time in a long period. There may be a million reasons for that, but one is most obvious, the financial burden of immigrants.
Friday 9 October 2009, 13:11
Henk. I totally disagree with you. The Gross Domestic Product (and income per capita) in the Netherlands has been increasing of recent except during the 2008 recession when things started getting bad. This had little or nothing to do with immigrants but with a worldwide slowdown that started in the United States. How the Dutch government chooses to disburse money in the economy—which I believe is what you meant to refer to—is another matter.
It amazes me how many people fail to realize that the Netherlands is relatively wealthy because it trades with the rest of the world. In other words, if the Netherlands closed its borders to the outside world it would get poorer. So many multinationals have their headquarters in the Netherlands because of the favorable terms it offers. But, for how long? The UAE, Singapore, Shanghai and Hong Kong are increasingly attracting finance to the detriment of Amsterdam, London and New York.
The problem isn’t so much immigrants but the unsustainable welfare state. Think people think! Fewer Dutch babies are born today than in the past and more Dutch people are living longer. For how long will the Netherlands (and much of Western Europe) be able to sustain a welfare state from an ever shrinking pot of working class? So many people (autochthonous and allochtonous) suck the welfare system dry, choosing not to work but live off the taxes of those that work hard.
Make the welfare state less attractive and I bet you’ll see changes. Stop complaining about immigrants. The biggest threat to the future of the Netherlands will come thousands of kilometers away—from the Middle East, India, China, Thailand, Indonesia, as they modernize and attract and build financial capital, skills and talent. The onus on the Netherlands is to find a way of reinventing itself in this fast changing world.
Instead of doing this, politicians waste time on useless issues relying on increasingly irrelevant nationalism and xenophobia to appeal to the voting masses. Not to say that there aren’t issues with immigrants (which society doesn’t have this!) but this pales in comparison to the real issues the Netherlands will face in the very near future. Then, these same immigrants will become an asset. So educate them and help them empower themselves. Of course, this would take time!
Friday 30 October 2009, 12:58
What’s the point of it other than possibly for the anti-immigrant, anti-foreigner, anti-muslim, anti-Europe PVV to probably try to use the figures to score politically?
Tuesday 10 November 2009, 13:58
Why not subject them to a cost benefit analysis?
After all they are coming, in the main, as ‘economic’ refugees be it in Europe or elsewhere. The élites have convinced us that demographically this is the way forward but if it were to prove not so much, then what?
Wednesday 11 November 2009, 13:27
Some politicians probably still prefer to stick their heads in the sand but studies have already shown that immigrants would be much needed in the years to come as the local population ages and as the birth rate continues to fall. Otherwise, who are going to do the not-so-pleasant jobs that the locals prefer not to undertake?
Friday 13 November 2009, 10:15
There are just certain things that cannot be measured with a cost-benefit analysis. It’s like running a cost-benefit analysis on having family gatherings or neighbourhood unions. Some of us would even argue that a cost benefit analysis of certain government agencies’ operations would conclude in not being worth having them…
Saturday 14 November 2009, 8:50
I had lived in Holland for two years before, and in the time I lived there, it was also the time when Wilders publish his ‘bloodily ridiculous’ movie about Islam.
I think the problem is not just about raising economic issue by questioning the economical improvement gained by allowing specific group of immigrants entering the country.
The tendency that I feel from Wilders with his PVV is hatred towards one group of people, which is Islamic immigrants.
I won’t object Wilders’ idea about calculating economic returns by (the whole) immigrants, but I would questions his very fundamental reason on why he asked for it!
After seeing his speech and action and also his decision to publish his movie about Islam which is also ashamed many Dutch people that I know, I think if Dutch people really want to save their country and keep it prosperous, they should know which people they need to blame. Is it the immigrant who in the long time had been a part of their society, or, someone who keep his head stuck inside his own world and do nothing except spreading tendency of hatred.
Sunday 15 November 2009, 15:38
Start having more babies! The Dutch are probably the best-looking people in the world. There should be more of them. It may mean a smaller house, but the world will thank you for it.
Sunday 29 November 2009, 20:17
Average Bear wrote:”The Dutch are probably the best-looking people in the world” By whose standards? Not everyone is crazy about Nordic looks and in my opinion, the honor of most beautiful goes to no other country but the beautifully colored brown people of Brazil!!!
On a more serious note, I agree with you that European economies cannot continue to grow in the absence of replaceable populations. And this is a serious issue. Unfortunately, modern society as has evolved in Western Europe is on a shrinking course and almost no government policy can stop it.
The Netherlands has a couple of more decades before it starts feeling the pinch of a shrinking population (without immigrants, that is). But countries like Spain and Italy are in a much worse shape. Demographics will dictate the future of societies and anyone reading between the lines can see that in a hundred years from now, the Netherlands would be a very different place.
Monday 30 November 2009, 17:31
@Abdul Okaka
Abdul, you say it is neccessary to have immigration to replace declining populations in western countries such as Spain, Italy, the Netherlands etc… but this is just what is worrying people. We don’t want to be ‘replaced’.
Economically it is unsustainable to, as an immigrant ages just the same as someone born here. Is the answer to an aging population of immigrants – to be more immigrants..?
Why not let populations stabilise… healthcare means we do live longer, and perhaps a smaller population with resonable expections in terms of a standard of living, is better than simply trying to create unsustainable, and unneccessary, population growth.
Monday 30 November 2009, 19:11
The saddest thing of the whole story is the wide- spread negativism and energy waisted. Fear and the protection of privileges are counterproductive, its cost likely to be much higher for the Dutch (or EU) society than transitory investment in new people. Mr. Wilders can ask for any cost analysis he wants, but it should be the relevant one.
If have seen too many native Dutch – lazy and protected by privileges – and too many young new-Dutch (I won’t use the word immigrant) working and studying hard to move forward. Yes, the Western model gives them better opportunities than in rural Maghreb areas and newcomers will be the first to recognize this. Sadly, too many Dutch just take it for granted.
Medieval practices certainly exist in some muslim countries and I believe they will prove unsustainable in a modern context. But medieval ignorance, superstition and popular hatred are reappearing in Europe. Is that the result of 2000 years of Christianity and enlightment?
I would propose to estimate the cost afflicted to society by negativism and populist politicians. So sad…
Tuesday 1 December 2009, 15:59
@Weibe
I am not saying that countries like Spain, Italy and the Netherlands should let in immigrants in future due to anticipated population decreases. No. But what these societies must realize is that as their populations decrease, so would their global clout and relative affluence.
If they choose to live with these, good and fine. It is up to every society to decide its own future course.
Changing demographics, however, would play a huge role in the future of the world and its wealth distribution whether we like it or not. Europe is aging and the basic fact is there will be a much smaller productive workforce in futre in Europe compared to the U.S, China or India.
Friday 4 December 2009, 20:49
@Abdul
I think perhaps we agree on at least part of this – that there is a choice, and peoples / countries need to be making informed, democratic choices regarding their own, and succedding generations futures.
From my perspective, it is both a responsible attitude to keep a population within the sustainable levels of a given region of the planet, and also to respect current local culture.
I am not promoting ‘isolation’ – all countries naturally evolve as peoples migrate, as they always have done, and always will. My personal point is that it should not be ‘artificially engineered’; a mixing of peoples over a period of time is one of the healthy aspects of human development, but forcing the issue for short term economic benefit is highly dangerous.
With regards,
Weibe
Sunday 9 January 2011, 18:46
I completely agree with Fairy. I am from a western country, and it, in my opinion, completely inappropriate for me to sit in the same inburgerings class as non-western immigrants. I have grown up in a very similar environment as here in The Netherlands. Inburgerings cursus for me is a very huge waste of time and money. The problem seems to be that the Dutch government is so busy ‘checking themselves’ that they can’t really see beyond the rims of their glasses.
I believe that cost anaysis of immigrants/immigration is absolutely crucial. I think at this point, I personally, am experiencing the result of ineffective and unbelievably xenophobic laws. Mandating that all immigrants attend inburgerings cursus is merely slapping a pleister on a hemmoraging laceration.